Thanks for posting. I don’t have time to deal with this now, but the arguments can wait. I will leave it as you sent it but edit for length later, and answer.

Briefly, you have not dealt with the issue that mormons believe that Christ is a created being, and that satan is his brother. Satan is created, Christ is not, and this is not breachable by negotiation.

There is the issue of the latter-day business, most especially in light of Scripture:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

This is the absolute benchmark of what’s fact and what’s not. If the church that followed Christ around on earth had received what you posted, then well and good, but the source you claim is outside the realm of the “Gospel that was once delivered unto the saints.”

You have to overcome this to have credibility with the believers of the vintage Gospel. The burden of proof is on you, not us, and any arguments which rely on anything after Galatians 1 was spoken is clearly outside of the genuine Gospel.

You cannot have a yard stick that is 36.0000001 inches long and still have a yard stick. The standard was set, and I categorically reject anything anyone tries to add to Gospel. I take the Gospel that was preached to the Galatians, that was preached by Christ to his disciples, to be the ONLY GOSPEL in existance. None of the arguments you offer are based on facts that predate Galatians 1. Every latter-day amendment is not ‘another gospel’, but a perversion of the Gospel of Christ.

It is not me who is saying this is so, it is the Gospel of Christ which says this is so, and I believe it..,

citizen

• Baptism: .

Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. http://www.imj.org.il/eng/exhibitions/2000/christianity/ancientchurch/structure/index.html
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. . Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and not allowing non-Christians to witness them

• The Trinity: .

A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?

The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. . The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one.”

Scribes later added “the Father, the Word and the Spirit,” and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. . . .He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. .

Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. . Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. . The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.

• The Deity of Jesus Christ

Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless. http://www.adherents.com/misc/BarnaPoll.html

• The Cross and Christ’s Atonement: .

The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection , not his crucifixion on the Cross. Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.

• Definition of “Christian”: .

But Mormons don”t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. . They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. . The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: . All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer.

It”s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology , they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.

. Restoration:

Roger Williams, the founder of the Baptist Church in America, concluded the following, shortly before leaving the church he established:
“There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking. (Picturesque America, p. 502.)

Martin Luther said the following: “Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,…unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation.”

On another occasion he wrote: “I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.”

While the Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from true Christianity, Lutheranism and Anabaptists find the remedy in reform, whereas Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and arguably Luther) claims the necessity of inspired restoration, not only for theological purposes but also to reestablish a broken line of apostolic succession and authority.

* * *
• Christ-Like Lives:

The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LDS . . . Evangelical

Attend Religious Services weekly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71% . . . . 55%

Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life –

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . extremely important .. 52. . . . . . . 28

Believes in life after death . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 76 . . . . . . 62

Believes in psychics or fortune-tellers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . 5

Has taught religious education classes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42 . . . . . . 28

Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline . . . . . . . . . . . 68 . . . . . . 22

Sabbath Observance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67 . . . . . . 40

Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith . . . . . . . . . . . . 72 . . . . . . 56

Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 . . . . . . 19

Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen

(very supportive) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .65 . . . . . . 26

Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping

Teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality . . . . 84 . . . . . . 35

It’s not only about black powder and old muskets. It’s about smokeless powder and primers too. The components of all ammunition, which have been handled safely for a hundred years, are suddenly the target of bureaucratic idiots.

It’s the assault on the second amendment that ticks me off.

We’re amicable Gavin, I don’t publish comments that aren’t.

If you’re actually an anarchist we should be seeing eye to eye on this one in spite of political differences, right?

Besides there is more than one way to skin a cat, and make gun powder for that matter. But I understand that you guys have historical accuracy to worry about, and therefore need just the right blend for such old guns (muskets?).

Again, I was just trying to offer advice, sorry if it seemed more vindictive than that… even if our politics don’t agree we can still speak amicably to one another.

Sometimes it pays to read through before going off half-cocked.

Thanks for your comment, it makes my point more effective.

citizen

Good question about whom to believe. I start with a strong balogna meter and add in strong street sense. I also have an intense distrust of crowds and politicians. When those two get mixed together the b-meter goes off the scale. Really, how likely is it that the most popular mania of the day is true? Not very..,